Curse

thunderpower · Mar 23, 2006, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Actually, when the "echo nuking" mania started, people used Arcane Echo, and not Echo. With arcane echo and glyps of lesser energy you can still be usefull, have low exhaustion.

The dumbest thing is the double echo nuker kidos. Using arcane echo with an energy managment skill is enough trouble if the mob decides they want to live and gang on the casters for a big hug. Echo + Arcane is = 0 energy, exhaust down to 0 energy.

If you keep a skill like flame burst in your skillbar, you can use that with Arcane echo if the mob gangs you.

Here is the best solution for using met shower with arcane:

Use glyps of lesser energy, right after use Arcane echo. Wait like 8-10 seconds and cast meteor shower. By the time you finished casting the first meteor shower, glyps of lesser should be recharged, or nearly recharged. Click glyps of lesser than the echoed met shower. This way you can have a pritty good energy managment, with min ehaustion.

Cherno · Mar 23, 2006, 01:26 PM // 13:26

I don't like being a full blown triple or quad echo nuker. It is very boring for my preference in playing and usually winds up as overkill.

I prefer to be more flexible and be able to dish out medium-high damage quickly and repeatedly. I do carry archane echo to use with meteor shower in places where there are some bosses, especially monk bosses, that might need interrupting.

Energy management and exhaustion are not a problem with a double attunement build.

Desbreko · Mar 23, 2006, 02:01 PM // 14:01

I've played my fire ele a lot and I've never been a big fan of casting double Meteor Showers. The only times I've really found it useful is for disrupting monk bosses, and there are much better ways to do that.

I think there's a bit of a misconception about just how uber Meteor Shower is. Sure, it does the most damage--but is it worth the cost of echoing it? After Searing Heat got a buff in the last balance pass I started playing around with it again and found I was more effective with it than I was with Arcane Echo. Looking at the numbers, I've been able to see why:

Meteor Shower is 3x119 for damage, so that's 357 total. Searing Heat is 5x37+42 (the 42 being from the three seconds of burning), so that's 227 total. Both cost 25 energy, but MS causes exhaustion and takes an extra 2 seconds to cast, so you're definitely paying for that extra damage.

The numbers for echo MS vs. MS+SH, then, look like this:

MS+MS: 3x119 + 3x119 = 714
MS+SH: 3x119 + 5x37+42 = 584

That's 130 more damage from an echoed Meteor Shower, but I find that a lot of the time, enemy mobs are able to escape at least one of the six meteors. While, on the other hand, Searing Heat only lasts five seconds instead of ten so I find enemies are almost always held within it for the complete duration. Factoring that in, the numbers are a lot closer:

MS+MS: 3x119 + 2x119 = 595
MS+SH: 3x119 + 5x37+42 = 584

That's only 11 damage less, and when you consider that 42 of Searing Heat's damage is degen and doesn't get reduced by armor like the rest, the MS+SH combo will probably even come out on top. So you've just done about the same amount of damage, in less time, and without as much exhaustion. Interesting, no?

But here's the real kicker: Since Searing Heat takes two seconds less time to cast, you have time for a Fireball on top of that while still staying within the same time frame as an echoed Meteor Shower. By then enemies are probably going to be scattering, so it probably won't hit all of them--but then again, you'll at least hit what you target, whereas the last of six meteors probably won't hit anything. So we now have:

MS+MS: 3x119 + 3x119 = 714
MS+SH+FB: 3x119 + 5x37+42 + 119 = 703

That combo is competitive even assuming that all six meteors from an echoed Meteor Shower connect, and it still doesn't cause as much exhaustion. As well, if you're using Archane Echo for the double Meteor Shower, it costs the same amount of energy; or if you're using Echo/Glyph of Renewal, it's only 5 more energy.

But that's not all. No, since you're not getting double exhaustion from two Meteor Showers, you can run Ether Prodigy without getting bogged down by too much exhaustion. That lets you spam Fireballs, Immolates, Rodgort's Invocations, or whatever without having to rely on an easily-stripped Elemental Attunement.

So, for the record, my fire ele build currently looks like this:

Fire Magic: 12+4
Energy Storage: 12+1

Fireball
Incendiary Bonds
Immolate
Rodgort's Invocation
Searing Heat
Meteor Shower
Ether Prodigy
Fire Attunement

I don't carry rez sig because that'd be one less doom spell.

torquemada · Mar 23, 2006, 02:13 PM // 14:13

I had similar experience. Bah, echo nuking sucks. There are much better & efficienf fire combos IMHO. If you really wanna do multiple showers, use glyph of renewal. If I'd echo anything, it would be Energy surge. Nice & clean.

Most people seem to think nuking=meteor shower. Well, it just isn't.

And your warriors need to "herd" the mobs. Most warriors who yell OMG NUKE NOOB when on <25% HP are clueless about it. I'm not about to spend 25nrg, exhaustion 60 sec cooldown spell just because someone's clueless about holding aggro or just plain ignorant.

However....when you have experienced tank on your team, you really don't need more than 1 shower per engagement. And don't forget my skillbar's not all meteor shower-related. Ele is not a meteor shower, neither is fire line.

koneko · Mar 23, 2006, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Heh, I remember this thread.

I gave up using my ele completely - random groups are simply incompetent. "omg u noob u not ECHO NUKE??" /koneko is kicked from the group

What Desbreko listed is pretty close to what I used to use, minus Searing Heat (I haven't played since they buffed it) and Fire Attunement (I'm too lazy to make sure to hit EP then FA).

The Real Roy Keane · Mar 23, 2006, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by koneko

I can see the argument for "echo nuking" in that you can throw out the big spells (Meteor Shower) quickly by using Arcane Echo/Echo/Glyph of Renewal or some odd combination of those. To me, though, that just screams "no energy management, you're useless after the first or second volley and have a load of exhaustion

Energy management isn't so essential in PvE, since you can control aggro.

torquemada · Mar 23, 2006, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Real Roy Keane

Energy management isn't so essential in PvE, since you can control aggro.

Yeh, but the trouble is (and that's why I never bother with echo nuking) most PUG's are clueless about PROPER aggro holding. That makes my shower plain inefficient compared to faster spells like fireball, searing, incendiary, etc.

For example: they do a proper aggro, a big mob is stuck on our 2 warrs. I ctrl+click meteor shower so they hold position for 5 secs. But...after 3 secs 1 tank decides to rush (not lower than 25% hp and monks are basically healing just 2 of em)...mobs go after him....shower wasted folks!! You wouldn't believe how often it happens!

SpeedyKQ · Mar 23, 2006, 02:31 PM // 14:31

I'm all for trying new things, but after experimenting with my ele quite a bit I didn't find any build as useful as the old echo nuker.

Meteor Shower is just a cut above every other ele spell in the game. Not only does it do more damage than anything else, but you get multiple, staggered knockdowns/interrupts too. I wish there was more balance, but there isn't.

I like Glyph of Renewal better than anything for the purpose of recasting MS, but you can only have one elite on your skillbar, and I want Elemental Attunement for energy management, so I stick with Arcane Echo.

It is interesting that Meteor Shower won't be in Factions. I'm really hoping that we get one other skill that is nearly as good as Metoer Shower so we can just have both on our skillbar and ignore the echo business.

coolsti · Mar 23, 2006, 02:50 PM // 14:50

GW PvE apparently has a definite problem that will most likely turn many a player away from this game at some point in time: 90% or so of the human players.

As soon as people find out that a particular build for a particular character in a particular PvE area works the best, then this becomes the only build that people will tolerate to play with. Stand around Tombs UW and try to get into a group as Ranger when you are not using a barrage/pet build!

And this is of course the case with Elementalists. If they are not echo Nukers, then no one has any use for them.

Ok, so great, if these character and party builds make the game easier, then why not use them? Well, because of the lack of freedom to choose among the many available skills, and because of the loss of diversity in the game.

The thing is, providing the players in the party play with any decent amount of tactics and intelligence, PvE is very easy no matter what the build and party compostion (ok, within reason of course). It doesn't take a b/p party to get through Tombs in a reasonable amount of time. Its far more fun to experience UW with a non-trapping team because you can get more places.

And why do people insist on fine tuning a party so that they can farm SF with only 5 in the party? Greens have been farmed so much that finding one or two less in a party of 6, 7 or 8 really doesn't make much difference anymore. Going out to SF with a larger party means not having to worry so much about that optimal party build, and so everyone can have some fun experimenting with their builds.

Maybe I am just ranting, but if I played this game with the 90% or so out there only interested in these optimal builds, ho hum, I would be bored out of this game by now.

torquemada · Mar 23, 2006, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Ill just sign your post, coolsti, and say nothing more.

frickett · Mar 23, 2006, 03:13 PM // 15:13

I like to be creative with my builds also, I didnt even know what a Barrage/Pet build was until a couple of weeks ago, and my Ranger was my first character. I have a Warrior necro, and have never used a premade build, and havent used any for my mesmer/ele. But sometimes, I just want to do something easy, something automatic even. That is when I log in as my ranger and barrage a bunch of stuff.

antialias02 · Mar 23, 2006, 03:41 PM // 15:41

My Mesmer forgoes echo nuking in favor altogether in favor of a fast-cast high-powered nuke build, using the likes of Desbreko's build... with a few changes.

Fast Cast: 12+4
Fire Magic: 12

Same skills, except...

Immolate->Res Sig (When I'm in a party)
Ether Renewal -> Elemental Attunement

I burn through things very quickly. Fast in true Mesmer fashion, but still quite powerful.

Elvarg · Mar 23, 2006, 04:18 PM // 16:18

If people in a PUG want an echo nuker, what stops from saying you are an echo nuker, even if you arent?

Once you get in, if you are actually any good with your build they will quickly stop caring about HOW you play as long as the results are in.

Dr Strangelove · Mar 23, 2006, 04:20 PM // 16:20

I often end up running echo nuker in FoW as no one will take anything else. I usually switch out glyph of renewal for glyph of energy, which is probably the most reliable energy management skill there is. It's 20 energy every 15 seconds if used right, and fights exhaustion. Double attunements can be more efficient, but I would say they get stripped 50-60% of the time leaving you standing around like an idiot. Ether prodigy can likewise be stripped, causes exhaustion which is enough of a pain already, and loves to blow up in your face at a bad time. Ether renewal falls over dead as soon as a single one of your 4 enchantments gets stripped, or you get interrupted while using your spam spell.

At any rate, I find that energy management is as important in PvE as in PvP. Most of the time groups will charge in well before you are recharged. A sustainable nuker beats a one-shot echo nuker any day. I routinely dedicate 3-4 skills solely to energy management, and rest assured I am NEVER the one constantly sitting around beggin for a shot of BIP.

Desbreko · Mar 23, 2006, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by antialias02

My Mesmer forgoes echo nuking in favor altogether in favor of a fast-cast high-powered nuke build, using the likes of Desbreko's build... with a few changes.

Fast Cast: 12+4
Fire Magic: 12

Same skills, except...

Immolate->Res Sig (When I'm in a party)
Ether Renewal -> Elemental Attunement

I burn through things very quickly. Fast in true Mesmer fashion, but still quite powerful.

That sounds like a fun build but I'm curious as to how you get by without Energy Storage. Ether Renewal only gives 1 energy per enchantment at 0 attribute level, doesn't it? With a 7 second duration and 30 second recharge it doesn't seem like it would be enough to keep you going very long. Unless maybe you could get a monk to stack some enchantments on you during its duration.

Cymboric Treewalker · Mar 23, 2006, 04:41 PM // 16:41

I run a Me/ that has been using /E for a while... I don't nuke ... I outlast the opponent and never run out of energy.

studentochaos · Mar 23, 2006, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warskull

Firestorm and Meteor Shower are high damage skills. PvE players are attracted to them because they make big numbers appear. Remember most players can't put together a halfway decent build to save their life. You'll find tons of players running weak builds in PvE (like all the Mo/W healing monks.)

/agreed
Strict PvE play does not challenge the player to improve so they have weak builds that they won't let go of (reguardless of logic).

Echo nuker is loved for its animation IMO. Meteor Shower has a big flashy animation that really seems like a lot is going on. Even if it isn't the best thing you could have done, the other party members are reassured all will go well because what happened looked so impressive.

Y.T. · Mar 23, 2006, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by koneko

I am having a difficult time finding groups in the most common farming areas (Ruins of the Tomb of the Primeval Kings, Sorrow's Furnace, et cetera) with my ele since I don't run with a "zomgzorz echo nooker of ownagezorz," which everybody seems to want.

(Search is broken still. Boo.)

well what can i say - if u think that all carpet bombers are ignorant rude kids that use this kind of language u're quite ignorant urself srry.
the fact that u're not sure how to manage ur enrgry while doing heavy damage dosnt nessesary mean that ppl who know how to do it deserve unfair comments.
if u need help with ur builds u can use search button - there are lots of nice builds posted.
as for complains that non-fire eles cant get into the teams - well thats old and it was discussed many many times...

personaly i NEVER accept random eles in teams. there are too many eles who dont know how to avoid aggroing, why they cant tank with fire nuker build, what spells break aggro and how they can survive without asking for BiP every minute... its just too boring to teach them - if we dont have guildies on we'll go without eles.
as for SF - well u just dont need eles there, simple as that. alot of ppl are farming SF and farmers have to be able to kill all bosses in min time with min players in party... 5-ppl is max team size but 3-ppl builds are nice as well. unfortunately theres no place for ele in such builds and u have to blame a-net for tweaking eles skills - not players who run optimal for this are builds...

i understand ur disappointment but what u said ist fair for alot of good carpet bombers

unless u just wanted to start another flaming thread

P.S. dont take me wrong i'm not trying to say that all eles have to run echo-met.storm builds... but this build is popular and useful for some areas, plus alot of ppl prefer to know whom they're inviting in their teams - and evrybdy knows what 'echo nuker' means, just like air spiker, earth spiker/warder.... if u want to fo SF quests for exp u can find group for it in warcamp1 in less than 10 min, if u want heavy farming - thats a diff question

Alleji · Mar 23, 2006, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Here's my echo nuker build:

Fireball
Rodgort's
Meteor Shower
Meteor
Fire Attunement
Res
Arcane Echo
Glyph of Energy

IMO glyph is a much, much better energy management when exhaustion spells are involved. Glyph of renewal/echo builds are just laughable. After overkilling one group they say "wait plz i'm exhausted down to 30"

Count to Potato · Mar 23, 2006, 08:46 PM // 20:46

I do energy management echo nuker:

Ele attunment

Fire attunment Both get you 80% energy back and the 20% left is back from energy regenen

then i echo nuke and so never loose energy